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ianpauljones's review against another edition
5.0
Loeb are in the process of replacing their aging editions of Livy’s History of Rome, and this volume was only published in 2017. It has a much fresher translation of Livy’s text, and the text itself has been amended based on continuing research into the various surviving manuscripts discovered in assorted monasteries and museums. Amazing to think that people can make their life’s work out of poring over dusty old manuscripts, trying to make sense of the errors and idiosyncrasies of long-forgotten scribes and monks.
This volume covers the immediate aftermath of the war with Hannibal and the subsequent wars in Greece, mainly involving Philip of Macedon, who had been Hannibal’s ally a few years previously. Compared to some other surviving bits of Livy, these books are pretty exciting. You can see how the Greeks were masters of their own downfall. With so much rivalry and infighting between the various cities there was no chance that they could ever put up a united front against Roman domination. In fact the Romans could plausibly present themselves as “liberators”, freeing the Greeks from the tyrants, oligarchs and petty kings who had overthrown whatever democracy the Greeks (well, the male citizens at any rate) had enjoyed in earlier centuries.
A couple of passages stand out for me. One is the exchange between two Roman politicians over how to deal with women engaging in political protest. In this case, the women are protesting the continuation of sumptuary laws controlling how much bling a woman could wear. The sumptuary laws were originally passed as a form of taxation during the war against Hannibal, but some conservatives wanted them to be retained in peace time as a moral issue, to control extravagance and ostentation. So we have Marcus Cato tearing his hair out at the inability of tough Roman chaps to control their wives (i.e. keep them off the streets) and wondering how the state can possibly survive. His opponent is more relaxed, arguing that women have been on the streets before and nothing bad came of it, so don’t stress…..
The other passage concerns Hannibal. Of course Livy detests Hannibal but following his sources he tells how after the Second Punic War had ended, the great general reinvented himself as an elected politician. Despite his hatred of Rome, Hannibal is committed to making the reparations demanded by the Roman Senate. He undertakes a thorough review of Carthage’s tax system and concludes that he can make the reparations without imposing new taxes on the poor. The answer is to tackle the widespread tax evasion of the upper classes. In response, the upper classes send envoys to Rome claiming that Hannibal is planning an alliance with King Antiochus of Syria to drive the Romans out of Greece. The Romans may or may not have believed the allegation but they use it as an opportunity to dispose of Hannibal once and for all. Hannibal is then forced to make a dramatic escape from Carthage, and he makes his way to Antiochus to offer his services as a military adviser. It’s a reminder that Hannibal might well have defeated Rome if he hadn’t been stabbed in the back by his own side.
This volume covers the immediate aftermath of the war with Hannibal and the subsequent wars in Greece, mainly involving Philip of Macedon, who had been Hannibal’s ally a few years previously. Compared to some other surviving bits of Livy, these books are pretty exciting. You can see how the Greeks were masters of their own downfall. With so much rivalry and infighting between the various cities there was no chance that they could ever put up a united front against Roman domination. In fact the Romans could plausibly present themselves as “liberators”, freeing the Greeks from the tyrants, oligarchs and petty kings who had overthrown whatever democracy the Greeks (well, the male citizens at any rate) had enjoyed in earlier centuries.
A couple of passages stand out for me. One is the exchange between two Roman politicians over how to deal with women engaging in political protest. In this case, the women are protesting the continuation of sumptuary laws controlling how much bling a woman could wear. The sumptuary laws were originally passed as a form of taxation during the war against Hannibal, but some conservatives wanted them to be retained in peace time as a moral issue, to control extravagance and ostentation. So we have Marcus Cato tearing his hair out at the inability of tough Roman chaps to control their wives (i.e. keep them off the streets) and wondering how the state can possibly survive. His opponent is more relaxed, arguing that women have been on the streets before and nothing bad came of it, so don’t stress…..
The other passage concerns Hannibal. Of course Livy detests Hannibal but following his sources he tells how after the Second Punic War had ended, the great general reinvented himself as an elected politician. Despite his hatred of Rome, Hannibal is committed to making the reparations demanded by the Roman Senate. He undertakes a thorough review of Carthage’s tax system and concludes that he can make the reparations without imposing new taxes on the poor. The answer is to tackle the widespread tax evasion of the upper classes. In response, the upper classes send envoys to Rome claiming that Hannibal is planning an alliance with King Antiochus of Syria to drive the Romans out of Greece. The Romans may or may not have believed the allegation but they use it as an opportunity to dispose of Hannibal once and for all. Hannibal is then forced to make a dramatic escape from Carthage, and he makes his way to Antiochus to offer his services as a military adviser. It’s a reminder that Hannibal might well have defeated Rome if he hadn’t been stabbed in the back by his own side.
lukerik's review
adventurous
challenging
dark
informative
fast-paced
4.0
The blood isn’t even dry on the Punic War and the Romans invade Greece. They’ve had this habit of stabbing people repeatedly until they stop moving. If anyone’s left alive they might have a quick chat, but the only real talking has been amongst themselves. The Greeks on the other hand are talkers. It’s like for them talking is just warfare carried on by other means. But now the Romans join the conversation. I get the impression that the Punic War has changed them.
It could be a false impression caused by Livy’s sources. Whoever he’s used has had access to the notes from secret meetings and has been interested enough to record them. In earlier volumes you get to hear what’s said in the Senate, but not the planning in smoke-filled rooms. In this volume you’re in those rooms and you’ve got a brandy. But only those rooms in Greece. Those in Rome are still closed. But by their actions we can judge them. They’re cunning and sinister and don’t put a foot wrong. By the end (and by the end I mean the end of the pentad, book 35 being in the next volume) they’ve reduced the two kingdoms that would pose a threat, made friends with one alliance of city states and used the other to draw Antiochus into Greece. Not bad for a bunch of rather blunt lads who are probably suffering from some sort of collective PTSD. The poor Greeks are trapped between a maniac and the merciless.
It’s not a perfect book. The situation in Greece is complex and Livy is not always as clear as he could be. It’s actually quite a difficult book. However, the situation is saved by the translator who has a few choice words about the standard of Livy’s history in the introduction. The notes are particularly good, probably the best I’ve seen in a Loeb edition, given the space constraints. He calls out Livy’s errors and is particularly good at referencing back to earlier passages. There’s no way you’ll remember all those names without help.
It could be a false impression caused by Livy’s sources. Whoever he’s used has had access to the notes from secret meetings and has been interested enough to record them. In earlier volumes you get to hear what’s said in the Senate, but not the planning in smoke-filled rooms. In this volume you’re in those rooms and you’ve got a brandy. But only those rooms in Greece. Those in Rome are still closed. But by their actions we can judge them. They’re cunning and sinister and don’t put a foot wrong. By the end (and by the end I mean the end of the pentad, book 35 being in the next volume) they’ve reduced the two kingdoms that would pose a threat, made friends with one alliance of city states and used the other to draw Antiochus into Greece. Not bad for a bunch of rather blunt lads who are probably suffering from some sort of collective PTSD. The poor Greeks are trapped between a maniac and the merciless.
It’s not a perfect book. The situation in Greece is complex and Livy is not always as clear as he could be. It’s actually quite a difficult book. However, the situation is saved by the translator who has a few choice words about the standard of Livy’s history in the introduction. The notes are particularly good, probably the best I’ve seen in a Loeb edition, given the space constraints. He calls out Livy’s errors and is particularly good at referencing back to earlier passages. There’s no way you’ll remember all those names without help.
Content Warnings
Graphic: War
darwin8u's review
4.0
"What is most glorious is also the safest: to place our hopes in valour."
- Livy, History of Rome, XXXIV, xiv
Books 31-34 of Livy's History of Rome detail the Second Macedonian war (200 to 196 BC) and the "War against Nabis" (tyrant of Sparta). It also details several battles and triumphs in Spain, Gaul, etc., and Hannibal plotting with Antiochus.
Book 31 sees the renewal of Romes war against King Philip of Macedonia. Athens asks Rome to help as they are being attacked by King Philip. Consul Publius Sulpicius leads his army to Macedonia and fights successfully against Philip in several cavalry battles. The people of Abydus kill themselves rather than surrender. Lucius Furius, the praetor, defeats in battle the Insubrian Gauls. Hamilcar the Carthaginian (not Hannibal's father) and 35k men are killed during the campaign.
Book 32 sees many prodigies. Titus Quincitius Flaminiunus fights successfully against Philip in the passes of Epirus (pushing Philip back to his kingdom). His brother Lucius Quinctius Flamininus Euboea helps fight Macedonia along the sea coast. A conspiracy of slaves is crushed. Cornelius Cethegus routs the Insubrian Gauls in battle. A treaty is signed with Sparta and their tyrant Nabis.
Book 33 sees Titus Quinctius Flamininus end the Second Macedonian war by defeating Philip in the Battle at Cynoscenphalae. His brother, Lucius, receives the surrender of the Acarnanes after capturing Leucas. Peace is signed with Philip. Hannibal starts to plot with Antiochus king of Syria. Marcellus defeats the Boi and the Insubrian Gauls and receives a triumph.
Book 34 sees the Oppian law (limits the expenditures of the women) is repealed. Cato goes to Spain and pacifies near Spain. Titus Quinctius Flamininus ends a successful war against Nabis, the tyrant of Sparta. Several colonies are founded. Hannibal flees to Antiochus after trying to plot through Aristo, a Tyrian, to convince Carthage to join with Antiochus in a war against Rome.
- Livy, History of Rome, XXXIV, xiv
Books 31-34 of Livy's History of Rome detail the Second Macedonian war (200 to 196 BC) and the "War against Nabis" (tyrant of Sparta). It also details several battles and triumphs in Spain, Gaul, etc., and Hannibal plotting with Antiochus.
Book 31 sees the renewal of Romes war against King Philip of Macedonia. Athens asks Rome to help as they are being attacked by King Philip. Consul Publius Sulpicius leads his army to Macedonia and fights successfully against Philip in several cavalry battles. The people of Abydus kill themselves rather than surrender. Lucius Furius, the praetor, defeats in battle the Insubrian Gauls. Hamilcar the Carthaginian (not Hannibal's father) and 35k men are killed during the campaign.
Book 32 sees many prodigies. Titus Quincitius Flaminiunus fights successfully against Philip in the passes of Epirus (pushing Philip back to his kingdom). His brother Lucius Quinctius Flamininus Euboea helps fight Macedonia along the sea coast. A conspiracy of slaves is crushed. Cornelius Cethegus routs the Insubrian Gauls in battle. A treaty is signed with Sparta and their tyrant Nabis.
Book 33 sees Titus Quinctius Flamininus end the Second Macedonian war by defeating Philip in the Battle at Cynoscenphalae. His brother, Lucius, receives the surrender of the Acarnanes after capturing Leucas. Peace is signed with Philip. Hannibal starts to plot with Antiochus king of Syria. Marcellus defeats the Boi and the Insubrian Gauls and receives a triumph.
Book 34 sees the Oppian law (limits the expenditures of the women) is repealed. Cato goes to Spain and pacifies near Spain. Titus Quinctius Flamininus ends a successful war against Nabis, the tyrant of Sparta. Several colonies are founded. Hannibal flees to Antiochus after trying to plot through Aristo, a Tyrian, to convince Carthage to join with Antiochus in a war against Rome.